Comments on: How is this not child abuse? http://kdegraaf.net/blog/archives/58 Whatever I Freaking Feel Like Saying Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:42:19 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Karla http://kdegraaf.net/blog/archives/58#comment-1627 Karla Mon, 04 Aug 2008 17:18:47 +0000 http://kdegraaf.net/blog/?p=58#comment-1627 I've told you I don't think atheist can't be moral, only that they don't have a philosophical base to support moral judgment. However, I've answered Daylight Atheism link on my site. But that's cool too if you aren't interested in my response. I’ve told you I don’t think atheist can’t be moral, only that they don’t have a philosophical base to support moral judgment. However, I’ve answered Daylight Atheism link on my site. But that’s cool too if you aren’t interested in my response.

]]> By: Kevin http://kdegraaf.net/blog/archives/58#comment-1626 Kevin Mon, 04 Aug 2008 17:00:44 +0000 http://kdegraaf.net/blog/?p=58#comment-1626 I do (and I have). I'm done trying to argue this with you -- I'm too busy raping and killing people, which is perfectly morally permissible because I don't worship an invisible angry sky fairy and his dead Jewish zombie son. I do (and I have). I’m done trying to argue this with you — I’m too busy raping and killing people, which is perfectly morally permissible because I don’t worship an invisible angry sky fairy and his dead Jewish zombie son.

]]> By: Karla http://kdegraaf.net/blog/archives/58#comment-1624 Karla Mon, 04 Aug 2008 16:44:28 +0000 http://kdegraaf.net/blog/?p=58#comment-1624 So you trust your own reason to determine morality? You should see my blog on reason. So you trust your own reason to determine morality? You should see my blog on reason.

]]> By: Kevin http://kdegraaf.net/blog/archives/58#comment-1621 Kevin Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:41:36 +0000 http://kdegraaf.net/blog/?p=58#comment-1621 <i>Also we ask why don’t you disregard morality if you don’t believe in God, not because you have no fear of God’s retribution, but because you have no standard but your own thoughts and inclinations to determine right from wrong.</i> Did you read parts #4 and #5 of the linked essay? <b>Reason</b> is our method for coming up with standards. <i>Where do those thoughts come from? If they are your own, why trust them? If they are from nature, why trust nature to tell us right and wrong?</i> http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/evolved-minds.html Also we ask why don’t you disregard morality if you don’t believe in God, not because you have no fear of God’s retribution, but because you have no standard but your own thoughts and inclinations to determine right from wrong.

Did you read parts #4 and #5 of the linked essay? Reason is our method for coming up with standards.

Where do those thoughts come from? If they are your own, why trust them? If they are from nature, why trust nature to tell us right and wrong?

http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/evolved-minds.html

]]> By: Kevin http://kdegraaf.net/blog/archives/58#comment-1620 Kevin Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:36:52 +0000 http://kdegraaf.net/blog/?p=58#comment-1620 God "is good in everything that He does"? Please see: http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/atrocities.html God “is good in everything that He does”? Please see:

http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/atrocities.html

]]> By: Karla http://kdegraaf.net/blog/archives/58#comment-1619 Karla Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:20:34 +0000 http://kdegraaf.net/blog/?p=58#comment-1619 "Religious apologists persistently claim that, without the threat of a vengeful god, atheism provides no basis for morality. If there is no divine retribution after death, they ask, why be a good person - why not just do whatever you want? If there is no almighty power handing down standards from on high, how can one even define what the terms "good" and "evil" mean?" That is a total straw man argument. That might be what atheists hear us saying because they see God this way and refuse to see Him differently, but it is most certainly not the argument we present. Or maybe Christians they have encountered have done an incredibly poor job of representing who God is and what the Christian worldview is really about. Some of us haven't learned how to communicate what we believe well yet. We do not maintain that we are ethical or good because God demands it with punishment of hell as the retribution for doing wrong. By no means do we argue this idea. No one is good. No one completely follows even their own standard of goodness. But we all have a moral sense of right and wrong. We all know we don't do right all the time. People can know what is good and try and do good and succeed and live an ethical life by most standards, but not do so because they are trying to please God. They know right and wrong because it is ingrained in them by God. Eternity isn't about the good or bad you do in life for no one could be good enough on their own. It's about loving God or rejecting God and even then it's not about loving Him with your own strength it's about accepting God's free gift of salvation and allowing Him to help you love and live the way you were created to-- not by strict adherence to stuffy rules, but by living a life of love because you are in relationship with He who is love. One who loves God and knows God through Jesus is transformed to live a more good life, but still Christians aren't perfect. Christians are at different levels in maturity some having just left their old life, some who live like they just left their old life and haven't matured yet into more, and those who are maturing closer and closer to God. They are all equally belonging to God through Jesus. Also we ask why don't you disregard morality if you don't believe in God, not because you have no fear of God's retribution, but because you have no standard but your own thoughts and inclinations to determine right from wrong. Where do those thoughts come from? If they are your own, why trust them? If they are from nature, why trust nature to tell us right and wrong? I see I have much work to do to help dispel some of the misconceptions of what Christians believe. I'd like to see skeptic arguments that actually address our beliefs instead of those who haven't really researched or understood what we believe. “Religious apologists persistently claim that, without the threat of a vengeful god, atheism provides no basis for morality. If there is no divine retribution after death, they ask, why be a good person - why not just do whatever you want? If there is no almighty power handing down standards from on high, how can one even define what the terms “good” and “evil” mean?”

That is a total straw man argument. That might be what atheists hear us saying because they see God this way and refuse to see Him differently, but it is most certainly not the argument we present. Or maybe Christians they have encountered have done an incredibly poor job of representing who God is and what the Christian worldview is really about. Some of us haven’t learned how to communicate what we believe well yet.

We do not maintain that we are ethical or good because God demands it with punishment of hell as the retribution for doing wrong. By no means do we argue this idea. No one is good. No one completely follows even their own standard of goodness. But we all have a moral sense of right and wrong. We all know we don’t do right all the time. People can know what is good and try and do good and succeed and live an ethical life by most standards, but not do so because they are trying to please God. They know right and wrong because it is ingrained in them by God.

Eternity isn’t about the good or bad you do in life for no one could be good enough on their own. It’s about loving God or rejecting God and even then it’s not about loving Him with your own strength it’s about accepting God’s free gift of salvation and allowing Him to help you love and live the way you were created to– not by strict adherence to stuffy rules, but by living a life of love because you are in relationship with He who is love. One who loves God and knows God through Jesus is transformed to live a more good life, but still Christians aren’t perfect. Christians are at different levels in maturity some having just left their old life, some who live like they just left their old life and haven’t matured yet into more, and those who are maturing closer and closer to God. They are all equally belonging to God through Jesus.

Also we ask why don’t you disregard morality if you don’t believe in God, not because you have no fear of God’s retribution, but because you have no standard but your own thoughts and inclinations to determine right from wrong. Where do those thoughts come from? If they are your own, why trust them? If they are from nature, why trust nature to tell us right and wrong?

I see I have much work to do to help dispel some of the misconceptions of what Christians believe. I’d like to see skeptic arguments that actually address our beliefs instead of those who haven’t really researched or understood what we believe.

]]> By: Karla http://kdegraaf.net/blog/archives/58#comment-1618 Karla Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:02:47 +0000 http://kdegraaf.net/blog/?p=58#comment-1618 You are correct that God never changes. But incorrect in your description of Him. He is good in everything that He does. He is good in employing justice as well as mercy. I was just pondering a blog post on this topic, so I will provide a more complete response that way soon instead of filling up the comment. As for morality, I've looked at your link before. Just because an atheist gives an answer to the question doesn't make it line up with truth. I will reread the link soon and see if I can offer a more complete response. You are correct that God never changes. But incorrect in your description of Him. He is good in everything that He does. He is good in employing justice as well as mercy. I was just pondering a blog post on this topic, so I will provide a more complete response that way soon instead of filling up the comment.

As for morality, I’ve looked at your link before. Just because an atheist gives an answer to the question doesn’t make it line up with truth. I will reread the link soon and see if I can offer a more complete response.

]]> By: Kevin http://kdegraaf.net/blog/archives/58#comment-1617 Kevin Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:37:31 +0000 http://kdegraaf.net/blog/?p=58#comment-1617 What is the correct "perception of the Father's heart"? Is the Bible wrong when it describes the vengeful, tyrannical Old Testament God? Don't your Scriptures state that God never changes? To me, the whole mess is self-contradictory and barbaric, but I'm sure you have some rationalization for it. As for morality, I'll respond with the standard link. (Even though you haven't demonstrated any willingness to read and digest this essay, other readers might.) http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/carrot&stick.html What is the correct “perception of the Father’s heart”? Is the Bible wrong when it describes the vengeful, tyrannical Old Testament God? Don’t your Scriptures state that God never changes? To me, the whole mess is self-contradictory and barbaric, but I’m sure you have some rationalization for it.

As for morality, I’ll respond with the standard link. (Even though you haven’t demonstrated any willingness to read and digest this essay, other readers might.)

http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/carrot&stick.html

]]> By: Karla http://kdegraaf.net/blog/archives/58#comment-1616 Karla Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:28:25 +0000 http://kdegraaf.net/blog/?p=58#comment-1616 That "joke" shows that that child had a wrong perception of the Father's heart and it was not in good taste for the ministry to retell it for it presents a common misconception about who God is. Just the same, as I have said before, you haven't a standard by which to judge even child abuse. Whose to say what is good and what is bad? You can say something is not beneficial to a person, but not that it is morally good or evil unless you grant God does indeed exist and is the self-existent constant where all justice lies and therefore we have the ability to determine right from wrong. You make judgments about right and wrong because there is a standard that you are designed to know and you know that good is preferable over bad even if you chose to break your own standards. You know this because it is truth and because you live in God's world and were designed with this knowledge by God. Evolution simply cannot account for good and evil. That “joke” shows that that child had a wrong perception of the Father’s heart and it was not in good taste for the ministry to retell it for it presents a common misconception about who God is.

Just the same, as I have said before, you haven’t a standard by which to judge even child abuse. Whose to say what is good and what is bad? You can say something is not beneficial to a person, but not that it is morally good or evil unless you grant God does indeed exist and is the self-existent constant where all justice lies and therefore we have the ability to determine right from wrong.

You make judgments about right and wrong because there is a standard that you are designed to know and you know that good is preferable over bad even if you chose to break your own standards. You know this because it is truth and because you live in God’s world and were designed with this knowledge by God.

Evolution simply cannot account for good and evil.

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